Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:47 pm

Does it seem that effort is required to not believe in "I"? Or is it more that it just doesn't make sense?
I’d say it would require more effort than I have to spare to believe in “I”. Can’t find it, wouldn’t make sense to believe in it anymore.
It won't hurt to wait on letting yourself on the hook and really looking.
Can you say that again in some other way? Didn’t get it :/
-Is there an I? What about a witness?
No “I”. Witnessing occurs but can’t find anything that is witnessing. A tightness activated in the throat.
-Is there a feeler of feelings?
-Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Can’t find any. Feeling come, thoughts come.
-What gives the individual body the label "Samu"?
I have no idea. Can’t find it.
-What do 'you' need to do/make happen, and what happens on it's own?
Decisions, actions, everything just happens ‘on it’s own’. Can’t find any proof that there’s something/someone doing anything. I guess one could say that the body is doing something. That some things happen by or through the body. Fingers typing, legs walking etc. Maybe we should chat for hours on the definition of ‘on it’s own’ but I guess it applies to everything that happens without an “I” and everything does.
-Does it feel like "I" disappears when looked for? Is there a feeling that "something is here"?
I don’t think the “I” ever even appears, except as a thought. There’s an experience but no one to be found that is experiencing. I guess one could say that the body is experiencing but even that is thought, colors are seen, sensations are felt etc. Behavioral patterns do arise every now and then but they are easier to notice nowadays and there seems to be a feeling involved. I’ll keep on looking at these when they arise.
How about time? Is there a past and a future, and a present moment? How fast does the present moment move? Exactly when does the past become present and the present become future?
No, there’s just the eternal now and everything else is a thought. The present doesn’t move and it never becomes anything else.

xxx

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:39 pm

Hi Samu,
Can you say that again in some other way? Didn’t get it :/
Woops, wow I wrote that terribly! I just meant it doesn't hurt to continue looking to make extra sure. This is a process of unfolding, and often there are still "aspects" of the self that are held onto after the gate - though the core of the illusion has been dismantled.

Wonderful answers, thank you. We don't need to know what is doing everything, or that things happen on their own - this can be a new belief system. Just that actually there isn't an "I" inside controlling, deciding, etc.
No, there’s just the eternal now and everything else is a thought. The present doesn’t move and it never becomes anything else.
The "now" is also a useful concept. What is it though? Can you find it? Let me know what you find.

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:40 pm

Woops, wow I wrote that terribly! I just meant it doesn't hurt to continue looking to make extra sure. This is a process of unfolding, and often there are still "aspects" of the self that are held onto after the gate - though the core of the illusion has been dismantled.
Yea, hopefully I’m at this point now, that the core has been seen through but emotional stuff keeps coming and thoughts ofcourse continue. But they’re just thoughts, I’m usually not much bothered by them. Feelings though are a bit hard to handle every now and then. :/
Wonderful answers, thank you. We don't need to know what is doing everything, or that things happen on their own - this can be a new belief system. Just that actually there isn't an "I" inside controlling, deciding, etc.
Yes, that little guy inside will probably not be found in an autopsy :)
The "now" is also a useful concept. What is it though? Can you find it? Let me know what you find.
This is really challenging to explain. The concept “now” refers to direct experience of life, which doesn’t change, it always is. Perception with different content may and does appear but it doesn’t change anything, direct experience is still there. I can’t hear anything tomorrow, or see something last year. I’d say more that I can’t NOT find the now since it’s all there can be, thinking aside. I can’t explain it. I’m in a dead end, blaah!

xxx
Samu

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:20 am

Hi Samu,
But they’re just thoughts, I’m usually not much bothered by them. Feelings though are a bit hard to handle every now and then. :/
That's nice about the thoughts. I hear you in regards to feelings.

I hear you...
This is really challenging to explain. The concept “now” refers to direct experience of life, which doesn’t change, it always is. Perception with different content may and does appear but it doesn’t change anything, direct experience is still there. I can’t hear anything tomorrow, or see something last year. I’d say more that I can’t NOT find the now since it’s all there can be, thinking aside. I can’t explain it. I’m in a dead end, blaah!
Dead ends can be good :).

Samu, to me you seem to be pretty clear. What do you think? Do you feel ready for the final questions?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:49 pm

Samu, to me you seem to be pretty clear. What do you think? Do you feel ready for the final questions?
Yes, bring them on!

xxx
Samu

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:13 am

Hi Samu,

Comin' in hot!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:06 pm

It burns! :P

I'll get back on these shortly! On a cruise ship for a week again...

xxx
-s-

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:04 am

Wow that sounds like a blast! Enjoy it, i'll wait to hear back from you then.

-W
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:29 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Not one that could be found, seen, sensed or proven to exist in any way. Never was. Only thoughts about one that were not questioned.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
I think it starts in childhood when the child starts copying beliefs from the environment. And since practicly all people believe that they are separate selves, this is passed on to children as truth. I don’t think babies are born with a self, they learn it from somewhere.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
In some way nothing has changed. And still, there’s this lightness that feels a bit new. And the freedom to question everything and not taking thoughts and stories for truth. Letting the thinking roll as before, just not mistaking it as reality. Emotional reactions still occur so the work is not finished in that sense but the “I” has been seen through. Total lack of interest in any gurus or spiritual masters. These characters make me smile at this point and I can’t believe how stupid I’ve been following all kinds of bullshit.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It started with reading the gateless book and having a realisation that the body can be sensed but there’s no “I” in there. After that the guidance has helped me blow up some more beliefs. But to answer the question - I have no idea. Something just drove me here, some sort of desire to know and see for myself and end the pointless seeking I was up to so many years.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision = they happen. An empty word really, like coincidence. Things just happen. That’s all I can say. It’s like “I decided to study enlightenment” turns into “seeking occurred”. I have no use for this word to be honest. hmm…

Intention = requires belief in time, since intention should be there before action or manifestation or something. One can think to have intention of eating a sandwich but it just happens. I guess one could say that when something happens that was thought to happen then there might be a thought that it was “intended” and if something completely different, “unplanned” happens, then a thought might pop up that it was “not intended”. Wow, this is hard to describe! but another empty word I guess.

Free will = I have no idea what this points to. Who’s will? Free from what?

Choice = choices are made. No maker. Or even, things happen as they happen, no proof really about option A / option B and some sort of decision between them. Only thoughts about “a choice”.

Control = there really is none to be found. only thoughts about control once again.

What makes things happen? = I don’t know. They just happen.

How does it work? = Life? I don’t know. The great mystery.

What are you responsible for? = Technically speaking the body named Samu can be held responsible for whatever actions. But in reality, since there’s nobody doing anything, there can be no responsibility.
6) Anything to add?
Nothing comes to mind really.

xxx
-S-

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:50 am

Hi Samu,
Total lack of interest in any gurus or spiritual masters. These characters make me smile at this point and I can’t believe how stupid I’ve been following all kinds of bullshit.
Haha! I hear you. This was my favorite part of your answers.

Thanks for taking the time and consideration for these questions. At the moment I do not have any questions, I think this all is sounding like you indeed have seen through the illusion and a certain experiential shift has taken place. This is important, however subtle it may be, it has to be beyond intellectual understanding. So to me this looks like it's happened.

I'll now post the questions for other guides to read over and if they have any questions I'll present them to you and we can take it from there ;).

Take it easy,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:48 pm

Hi Samu,

A couple questions from other guides:

-What is it exactly that is reacting emotionally and what is it that has control whether emotional reactions occur or not?

"Close your eyes and focus on the body.
-How is it experienced?
-Is there an inside or an outside?"

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:13 pm

-What is it exactly that is reacting emotionally and what is it that has control whether emotional reactions occur or not?
There’s no thing reacting, only a sensation is felt (in the body, it seems). I don’t think anything has control over if reactions occur or not.
"Close your eyes and focus on the body.
-How is it experienced?
Through sensations of clothes touching the body, or a couch under the butt etc.
-Is there an inside or an outside?"
Concerning the body? Only in thoughts is it defined where the body ends and something else begins.

Ps. One more thing came to mind as still somewhat confusing. I’m able to experience the body directly and also for example the body liftings its arm. Does that mean that the body itself is ‘in control’ of it’s actions? Let me know if the answer can be looked for and known somehow and I just don’t see it. Or if not, then I’ll just forget about it.

xxx
-s-

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:42 pm

Hi Samu,
One more thing came to mind as still somewhat confusing. I’m able to experience the body directly and also for example the body liftings its arm. Does that mean that the body itself is ‘in control’ of it’s actions? Let me know if the answer can be looked for and known somehow and I just don’t see it. Or if not, then I’ll just forget about it.
Did the body lift the arm, or did the arm just lift? If it's the body that controls itself, is it the whole body that controls itself? Or a specific part of the body that controls?

I will get back to you if the guides have any more questions :)

-W
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:16 am

Hi Samu,

I have a few more questions to add:

-Is the body experienced in any other way than through the senses?
-Can you see what causes it to move?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:58 pm

Hi Samu,

Uno más! There's one more question from a guide (and please do take your time as I know I'm throwing a lot at you here. Perhaps take each question at a time).

Could you describe direct feelings from experience? What has been showing up and changed from the beginning? Dive into emotions - Is there joy, gratitude, fear? Please describe from within how these really feel for you.

-W
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei


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