Hello from Poland!

[Piotr]

-How did you wake up? What happened?

I have been experimenting with psychedelics which resulted in spiritual search.
This resulted in overusage of psychedelics and engaging in unskillful pranayama... leading to kundalini syndrome.

This resulted in more sincere search and few months of intense shamatha and guru yoga having taken refuge in Maha Sambodhi Dharma Sangha (called formerly by people with nickname "buddha boy").

Then I came across Mooji; his teaching guided me to see through illusion of Piotr; I have seen through it almost instantly; identification with personal self never came back after I experienced samadhi his satsang guided me into. I had experience of formless self-awareness but haven't recognized them in this way before.

Of course due to dualistic and inherent view this non-dual experience was immediately grasped as purest identity and "witnessing space-like presence".

There was a time of few months of refining practice.

Basically what I realized is designated in world of spritual seeking as Existence (Sat), Consciousness (Chit), Ananda (Bliss).Formless self-recognizing presence that is devoid of personhood. False "freedom" and misunderstanding due to dualistic and inherent view.

I had period of interest in Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings. I misinterpreted as confirmation of my substantial awareness realization.

My major breakthrough occured due to coming across Wei Yu Soh's blog; http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com

It resulted in direct insight into what is called "firstfold emptiness"; discovery about I/Me/Agent/Doer/Knower; not-seeing it.

It showed how Self-realization is just holding on in disguise of letting go. It led me to understand how buddhadharma is different from paradigms affirming Existence-Consciousness-Bliss and this enabled me to move further.

Only after this initial insights into Not-Self I realized what "meditation" and "practice" is.

"A monk asked Tozan, “When cold and heat come, how can we avoid them?”
Tozan said, “Why don’t you go to the place where there is no cold or heat?”
The monk said, “What is the place where there is no cold or heat?”
Tozan said, “When it’s cold, the cold kills you; when it’s hot, the heat kills you.”

-What changed? What is different after seeing through the illusion?

Nothing have changed; simply self-view has been naturally abandoned. Experience always was without additional agent, without "I/Me". There never was thinker that is projecting thoughts, feeler behind feelings etc There never was universal changeless One Self. There never was any "God's will" behind experience. Just this; spontaneous play of dharmas as according with general dependent origination as per Gautama Buddha:

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that." wisdom of these few lines is unlimited.

There never was findable entity even behind all contractions based on self-view. It was always just assumed because honest and direct search for it has not taken place.

Experience was always spontaneous unfolding; afflictions and self-view too were spontaneous manifestation without source. It was always spontaneous with neither I/Me nor some imagined "God's Will" hiding behind the scenes.This includes ALL imputations about there being universal awareness that is mirror. All reifications and delusions of one inherent global identity of everything. All clinging to unchanging thing as existential substance/self etc).

There certainly was suffering because of self-view but there never was any entity. Suffering without sufferer rolled on.

Just delusion; giving reality to baseless interdependetly originated imputation. It seemed to be real but when it was challenged with contemplating Not-Self (Anatma) it was seen that "I" never was "there", "here" or "in-between".

With this insight I understood that this... just this... is the end of stress.

What led me to this insight was mostly contemplation on Bahiya Sutta:

"(...)"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself.

When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

And John Tan's (aka Thusness) two stanzas

"(...)There is thinking, no thinker
There is hearing, no hearer
There is seeing, no seer


In thinking, just thoughts
In hearing, just sounds
In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors.(...)"

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... neous.html

Wei Yu Soh pointers certainly helped me to realize this.

I have entered Not-Self insight through second stanza by Thusness I have mentioned beforehand. First there were marvelous peak experiences of No Mind/No Mirror, then by contemplating first stanza insight into emptiness* agent/doer. Experience is realized as totally spontaneous without any kind of source; including all reifications of "God", "Universal Awareness" and all other ideas that are giving inherency to concept of source and substance. All delusions that are results for craving for something additional for simple experience.

Existence-Consciousness-Bliss realization that took place before in comparision to Not-Self insight was in the end only exchanging rusty chains for golden ones. It of course had relative benefits (like cessation of conceiving myself as person with biography) but was in fact still subtle clinging to purest identity as formless self-awareness.

What changed in daily laife?
I see gradual reduction of habitual patterns, afflictions etc

I feel naturally motivated to devote life for dharma and practice towards complete cessation of all habitual grasping, remaining afflictions etc so I won't make sentient beings suffer and confused but instead be of use to them in everyday life and guiding them to liberation as well. Basically my motivation is what in buddhadharma is called bodhichitta.

But initial insight into Not-Self is just beginning of "real practice". What remains is to penetrate further to realize two-fold emptiness; when we see through self it does not mean that we have fully untied what I will conventionally designate as "knot of inherency". Insight of Not-Self is to be extended to phenomena.

-What is the self?

Baseless imputation that does not refer to any real entity that could be pinned down. It won't disappear after direct insight, it won't reappear afterwards due to habits. It is empty by nature.

"I" is concept dependent on all that is not "I"; "I" depends on "others", "others" depends of "I"; both are just designations that do not refere to real entities.

But we must be aware that dissolving of "two" into "one"; meaning disolving "self" and "others" into one universal awareness; (purest impersonal and formless identity) is still in realm of imputation and delusion.

It's like mistaking rope for a snake; we can be terrorized because we have deluded ourselves that it was snake; but when we take a closer look we realize it was rope all along; same is with I-construing. "I" is also interdependent with "mine" (very nice text about this; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html that I agree with). "I" is contrued due to mistake and that's all.

Our liberation occurs not because we negate inherent "Self" as non-existent but because we are not finding any inherent self that could be existent or non-existent (also both and neither). That not-finding agent, doer, experiencer is discovery of truth about self.

-How would you explain this to someone who is interested in this, but not yet familiar with the topic?

That is not so simple lol. It can be done in various ways. Certainly I would be clear that Self-realization (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss) that results in most beautiful form of ego is not realization of Not-Self. Same goes for Substantial non-duality where reality is experienced in monistic way based on transcending "self/other" by subsuming into "self without other or one without two". This too is not realization of Not-Self.

Not-Self teachings from buddhadharma do not point to what Self teachings lead to etc. These two false liberations can occur when person is seeking into nature of self and they likely will happen if search has basis of assumption that there is purest identity that is to be found; rather than checking if there is any self at all.

But on the other hand realizing "Self" as formless self-awareness is what enables someone to have true touch and experience of spiritualty; to cut through endless loops of grasping at stories, emotions etc. So in case of some people it may be beneficial. So depending on circumstances I would either point fallacy of casual, personal separate self in way that would result in experience of impersonal Self (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss) or directly lead to Not-Self; then I would probably use buddhadharma as tool.

I wouldn't say that clinging to self is just result of language and social conditioning etc because from my POV it is not so simple. Of course this view is practical tool to point out that this way that can fulfill it's role... especially for people who are attached to materialistic world view...

But it is limited in a way that my view is that sentient beings spontaneously grasp at dualism and inherency. "I" does not need to be formulated in "I", "Ich", "atma" for sentient beings to apprehend appearances as other and cling to body, mind and internal and external realities.

I would point out what buddhadharma calls three marks of existence; unsatisfactoriness, impermance and not-self. Point out how grasping at apprehender and apprehended which are both impermanent (thus stressful) as I/mine is leading only to stress and endless loop of suffering.

I would approach that person about delusion how thoughts create illusion of continous entity and how it is connected to attributing concept of time with objective reality. I would slowly guide for that person to realize that it is not the case that one thoughts arise from other but that they are disjoint and unsupported; to see that linking basis is assumed and is just "content" of thought that is given inherent meaning as refering to reality.

Also I would guide person to contemplate assumed subject in all six entries (hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, feeling, thinking) both as agent/doer and subject/knower.
So I would encourage that person to see if direct experience does really contain additional agent, perceiver, doer.

But overall it is not so simple; it depends on circumstances

Which brings me to...

-What brings you to this forum?

WIsh to share and wish to learn about direct ways to point out illusion of self of any kind that did not occured to me beforehand and that are used here; so I wish to help others and upgrade my dharma inventory at the same time haha.

Regards!

[JonW]

Hi Piotr.
My feeling is that it is far less complicated than that. It is simply seeing what is and stopping seeing what isn't.
I wish you every happiness on your journey through the gate.
JonW

[Piotr]

Unfortunately it is not less complicated than that. I am sorry but there is no true and mature realization what I call "Not-Self" without clarity.

You can have person marked as "liberated" while what they have realized is just exchange of one limited identity of small ego in cage of body to "unlimited identity"; infinite ego of "pure consciousness". And of course they will be happy and share this new identity as "freedom". That is the goal of many spiritual disciplines and traditions; to make ego affirm it's most beautiful shape that makes it free from personal stories.

And that is not realization of Not-Self regardless of how that person will insist on that it is. Regardless of "confirmation" that this person is liberated by someone who simply lacks clarity on these matters and is unable to discern this subtle things.

"It is simply seeing what is and stopping seeing what isn't."

I can agree with you but I can easily recall famous contemporary spiritual teachers who use this statement all the time but all they lead to is just another delusion (although kind of delusion that has many relative benefits on well-being etc) and leaving person mistaking confusion with clarity, delusion with freedom etc.

You can read article on LU; it is very informative about this http://liberationunleashed.com/Article_ ... ience.html

[kvotski]

Hi,

My name is Sunil. You have had some amazing experience and your membership here may be useful both for your karma and the new liberation seekers here. But I am unsure as to what you wish from this group. Have you had a chance to read our literature and familiarize yourself with what we do and how we do ?

If yes and you wish to join us as guide, we would need to confirm your experience with at least three guides here.

Please let me know if you wish to proceed after reviewing our sites, the gateless gatecrashers books and some of the ongoing threads on this site.

We use first name here.

Best wishes.

[Piotr]

I haven't read the book yet.

I know your methods and ways only briefly (I've read through couple of threads here already) but know what is the point here; guiding people to directly recognize in direct experience that "self" does not refer to any entity.

Yeah, I am interested.

I know about first names hence I used one as login.

Best wishes.

[kvotski]

Hello Poitr,

Given your deep experiences, it may be best you let me know what do you expect from this interchange? What do you expect to find out in direct experience that you do not already know? Where are the doubts? How would this new finding change your experiential mosaic?

Regards.

[Piotr]

I do not expect revolution in my experience since I know that insight into no-self is just beginning. Even highly realized practicioners who mature their no-self realization can be awakened from their "fruit" to proceed with extending their insights into two-fold emptiness...

=>

-What brings you to this forum?

WIsh to share and wish to learn about direct ways to point out illusion of self of any kind that did not occured to me beforehand and that are used here; so I wish to help others and upgrade my dharma inventory at the same time haha.

I haven't given too much thought about this but just something made me interested in undergoing this training in "direct pointing".

Regards

[kvotski]

Hello Poitr,

There is no training here. All we aim to do is to show those who have not seen, that there is no self, never was and never will be. That self is an illusion, no matter what you decide to call it. And yes, that is the first step in truth realization whatever that might be. I do not know the truth, just know that I is not here nor is Poitr. How does listening to this feel to you? Do you have any doubts? If yes, we can work on them.

[Piotr]

By training I mean that to be allowed to guide people here one has to become more familiar with ur method/groups on fb etc etc

How does listening to this feel to you? Do you have any doubts?

Currently it is completely obvious thing that does create neither positive nor negative feelings.

It is in fact quite ordinary that there is no self in any shape and form and all is just process without selves.

[Piotr]

If international guiding area in my language (polish) would be created I could work out there too.

[kvotski]

Hello Poitr

Yes, we do have international clients. Many, in fact. To become a guide, we need to get the following questions answered as you may already have done. I will post the answers to our group for confirmation. Upon that confirm, you will be invited to join our groups.

Here they are,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?

All the best.

[kvotski]

Just one word about answers to these questions. We can already see much of your experience in the post above. What I would like to hear is here and now, answer from your experience at this moment, not thoughts.

Regards.

[Piotr]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is neither separate nor unified entity that word "self" refer to. It is always the case even when habitual self-contraction comes into play or when one sinks into mirror experentially ("optical illusion" of making mirror/center out of "I AMness" still resurfaces here).

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I don't know when it starts.

Illusion of "self" is ignorance of one's true nature.
It is illusion of "subject" and "object", "self" and "other".
Illusion of inherent entities.

Ignorance... grasping SEEM to occur... but that very grasping is totally baseless.
For there is always no entity; no real grasper behind it and also no real entity is found that could be grasped.
It is like attempt to hold on to a phantom which is always just mental fabrication. No one stands behind this attempt; it just arises as expression of potentiality of our real nature.

Without grasper and grasped how could then "grasping" be established as something inherently real?

Grasper, grasping and grasped are all just vicious circle of ignorance and afflictions.

That disease arises due to coming together of causes and conditions... and ceases when these are not present; when ignorance is partially (or fully) seen through.

But no entity was hurt by this illusion and no entity is benefited by cessation of this illusion. When I was afraid of loosing myself and total disappearance... In reality nothing was there in the first place that could disappear. We loose nohing when we make a sincere search for self. And we gain nothing by discovery. Such is our misery.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There are no particular feelings about this at the moment besides deepened awareness of impermanence and sudfering.

When I write this and contemplate current state again impermanence is felt more deeply. I see how despite of no-self insight I sill tend to goofy around...

It was damn nice to answer questions!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I just woke up one day having direct insight into both stanzas by Thusness I mentioned above that encompassend even formless aliveness (so-called I-AMness)...

But no particiular condition I would try to impute with role of being that "last bit".

Gautama Buddha was really convincing for me when I read the suttas. He made it quite apparent for me that I-construing leads only to suffering. Even when this I is formless "universal consciousness".

After seeing how universal self is still illusion... Only then my heart opened for real impermanence.


5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

Decisions happens without real entity of "self" standing behind the scenes. There is no real and inherent "self" that controls anything.

But.

Insight into no-self doesn't make me cling to conceptually fabricated version of false spontaneity which leads only to more suffering.

Now maturing my view, experience and realization I am integrating intention, making decisions etc with insight that there is no inherent "self" (and "phenomena" too!).

6) Anything to add?

May all beings be lovingly peaceful.

[kvotski]

Will put, Poitr.

I will present this to our group who may have some questions.

Thank you for wanting to join us.

[kvotski]

Hello Poitr:

Other guides agree with my conclusions.
You will be contacted by our admin regarding invites to the various fb groups.

Welcome again